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Haversine Forums -> AirTrack - General Issues and Support

Problem with ILS / ADF needles

Posted on December 30, 2011 10:03 by Tito

Hi to all.
I'm a newbie of XP9 and 10. I've an IPad with AirTrack and iv've noted this problem: the ILS needle and the ADF needle aren't shown on IPad but are shown correctly on XP (9 and 10). The problem regards many many airports/navaids both in XP9 and 10. I've noted that the VORs and the ADFs seems have a short range to follow correctly (the needles are shown correctly in range < 40 NM and it's too difficult to follow with the AP) .But the important thing for me is the ILS...i've taken an IPad for this beautiful program and i'd like to see it function properly....there's anyone with the same problems or with a possible solutions?
Many thanks in advance and many many thanks to Joao for the help with my account.

Tito

My system is: IMac i5 Snow Leopard 4GB ATI 6770 1TB HDD

Posted on December 30, 2011 11:10 by skyfox

Hi Tito,

The first thing to have in mind is that AirTrack comes with Navigraph's 1006 AIRAC as the default navigation data. This is different from X-Plane's navigation data so things may differ. If you want to see the VORS, NDBs and localizers exactly as you see them on X-Plane, you need to install XP's data:

Under Settings -> Navigation Data -> Select and Download an X-Plane AIRAC

The next thing concerns ranges and sensitivities; AirTrack performs its own internal calculations in order to position its needles and bugs, so it does not take a 1:1 match of what X-Plane shows. It may be that AirTrack doesn't capture an ILS when XP does, and this may be just because the criteria to simulate if the localizer signal is in range or not is different. AirTrack can be very picky about these things perhaps, mainly because it tries to ressemble the real systems as much as possible.

So here are a few things to consider:

On display:
###########

As you will notice, the needles and bugs on the MFD differ depending on being in Center or Expanded mode, and depending on whether you are in APP, VOR, MAP or PLN mode. This is how it is supposed to be and tries to replicate the real systems of a 737NG as much as possible.

On ranges:
##########

Each VOR, NDB, localizer or glide-slope has its own range. In order to capture one of their signals you need to be within its range.

You can see the range of each NDB or VOR under waypoints by disclosing details about it. Again, since the navigraph and x-plane's databases differ, ranges may also differ, so you might want to select X-Plane's data in order to be as close
as possible.

The range of NDBs depends on their class / range power and is defined in AirTrack's defaut nav data as:

50NM for High 200 watt or more NDBs
75NM for undefined 50 to 1999 watt NDBs
25NM for medium 25 to less than 50 watt NDBs
15NM for low less than 25 watt NDBs

Again this is different with the X-Plane's data as it has its own ranges.

The range of VORs also depend on the range/power class and figure of merit of the VOR, namely:

25NM for terminal VORs
40NM for Low Altitude VORs
130NM for High Altitude VORs
150NM for Extended High Altitude VORs

On top of this, there are a few more restrictions:

Terminal VORs can only be captured below 12000 feet

Low altitude VORs can only be captured below 18000 feet

High altitude VORs only spawn to 130NM when above 18000 feet
Below 14500 feet these have a max range of 40NM

See http://www.flightlearnings.com/2008/10/29/very-high-frequency-vhf-omnidirectional-range-vor-part-1/ for a further explanation.

So this is probably why ranges differ from X-Plane since AirTrack tries to simulate these as in reality as much as possible. I don't know how XP does it.

On ILS:
#######

Typically:

Localizers will have a range of 18NM
Glide-Slopes will have a range of 10NM

However:

In order to capture the localizer signal you must be within its
angle of attack which is within a cone of:

10+10 degrees to each side of its path when between 18NM and 10NM of it
30+30 degrees to each side of its path when at 10NM or closer

Plus:

You must not be more than 4500 feet above the localizer

In order to capture the glide-slope (vertical navigation):

The ILS must have a glide-slope system (not all have)

You must be within 10NM of it

You must capture it at its projected path, depending on its angle

Imagine the glide-slope as a beacon of light projected on the sky, now you must cross it in order to make the needles move. They are very sensitive, each circle on the PFD represents 200 feet above or below it.

On Sensitivity:
###############

Note that APP and VOR modes have different lateral sensitivities when doing ILS approaches or navigating towards a VOR:

In APP mode:

Each circle on the PFD represents 1 degree of deviance from the path or selected radial.

In VOR mode:

Each circle represents 5 degrees.

So basically, APP mode is more precise and should be used for ILS approaches, and VOR mode less precise and should be used for VOR navigation.

---

And that's more or less it, I hope you find this helpful (I should post it on the FAQ too so that others can find this info),

Also don't forget to check the manual available on the downloads section where this is also covered.

If anyone has any ideas, suggestions, additions or corrections to this, feel free to comment and give them here.

enjoy the app,
joao @ airtrack

Posted on December 30, 2011 12:00 by Tito

Many thanks for your reply...
but my questions are still pending. My main problem is that once i have choose the xp airac the ILS and ADF needles are still missing. Viceversa, in xp the needles are ok....this is the questions that i would like to solve...your reply is however complementary for my aknoledgements.

Thanks

Tito

Posted on December 30, 2011 12:49 by skyfox

Hum, ops! then I'm sorry, I didn't understand the question :(

Which needles are you missing? In the MFD? I can see them there...

Needles are shown when the navaid is tuned / captured/in-range. You need to tune the VOR/ILS frequency in NAV1 or NAV2 and the ADF frequency in ADF1 or ADF2.

1) ILS/VOR needle in the middle which rotates with magenta bar moving to the center: Only on APP and VOR modes; make sure you select one of these modes (the default is MAP mode, click on the MAP button to toggle to PLN and then to APP)

2) ILS/VOR needles in green, ADF needles in blue, shown around the MFD - Shown in APP, VOR and MAP modes

However: You can only display 2 needles, corresponding to NAV1 or ADF1 and NAV2 or ADF2.

You use the "VAS" button to toggle and select if you want to use NAV1 or ADF1 and NAV2 or ADF2. This is similar to the VOR/ADF switches in EFIS controls.

You will see the colours on the lower left and right corners changing between blue and green indicating if you are in VOR or ADF mode for the selected radio (1 or 2).

If you are in range / captured the frequencies will be replaced by the name of the navaids.

Hope this helps,

If not let me know your particular case, location and configuration and I will look, or which needles are you looking for, maybe I still didn't understand them ... if possible send a screenshot of the missing needles.

thanks,
joao

Posted on December 30, 2011 22:42 by Tito

Ok let's see...
Before write my first post i've tried all that you told me to do (tuned the VOR/ILS, checked the freqs and CRS of ILS many times and all it's correct/ok).
On the screen of the IMac or better, in the cockpit's MFD all is correct. My plane (for example) is on RWY 25 at LIRF airport ready to take off.
I see in the cockpit's MFD the right green indication of my position in the low left corner that say LOC FEE FREQ etc and in the center of the MFD a magenta mobile bar perfectly aligned (i know that i set a freq that doesn't need during a take off but it's an example).Viceversa on the IPad's MFD the magenta mobile bar is missing.
Then...i've positioned my plane 10 NM ready to land on the same RWY at the same airport....result? The same. on the cockpit's MFD everything it's ok but on the IPad's MFD the magenta bar is still missing and the green indication at the low left corner isn't LOC FEE etc but only NAV1 and the freq.
the problem is not the GS but the magenta moving bar. Now all that above has been tested at LIRF, LIPZ, LFPG LIRA, London Heathrow and many others and the problem is the same...on the IPad's MFD i can't see the magenta mobile bar.
Talking about the ADF everything it's ok in the cockpit's MFD but on the IPad's MFD i can't see or it's missing the arrow (either blue or green independently if i select ADF1 or ADF2 even changing the setting with the VAS button. I've tried these NDB: Grosseto, Tarquinia (the VOR too) Chioggia, Bolsena, Ostia, Elba and many others....the problem is the same...there's no arrow on the IPad's MFD and on the cockpit's MFD everything it's ok...hoping it's only my problem...
thanks in advance...as soon as possible i try to post some screenshots...if i will be able to do....

Posted on December 31, 2011 09:17 by skyfox

Hum, you must be missing something...

I just sent you a screenshot taken just now with AirTrack 3.0.3, 3NM out of RW25 of LIRF, where you can see both the magenta needle and the ADF arrow.

In NAV1 I had tuned 110.15Mhz for the FEE ILS

In ADF2 I had tuned 343kHz for for FW NDB

You can see both the ILS and the ADF.

The ILS will probably work if you are at the beginning of the runway but you may loose it if you move along as you pass it. So if this fails you can try placing the plane 3NM out of the RW in X-Plane and pressing p-pause.

You need to toggle the 4 lower left buttons in order to be in NAV1 mode (L1 button), VOR1/ADF2 mode (L2 - VAS button), CTR mode (L3 button) so that you can see the NDB arrow, otherwise it goes out of the MFD range, and in APP mode (L4 button)

If you still have problems, send me a screenshot from the iPad by email so I can have a look (sorry, this system doesn't allow posting pictures easily). You can take one by pressing the home button and the power button togetether while in AirTrack.

hope this helps,
joao

Posted on December 31, 2011 18:21 by Tito

Thank you so much i've tried to do that, and, everything (?) it's ok...but...where do you have take the freq 110.15? This is the issue...i took the freq from the local map from XP and i've noted that 's a little bit different from yours...i had set it to 110.70 so said in the local map...but now the problem is that now on IPad i see the moving bar but i can't see it on IMac...the solution? Please tell me where do you had taken the right freq....in the meantime i'll wish a VERY HAPPY NEW YEAR for You and for everyone!!!! And most important Happy Landings!!!!

Tito

Posted on December 31, 2011 18:37 by skyfox

In general, you can see the frequencies in the local map in X-Plane, or you can see it in AirTrack itself:

Go to WAYPOINTS, then press Lookup; lookup for an airport, for example, LIRF, and select it. This will save it on your personal list.

Or, in Waypoints, select nearby airports.

Now select it from the list of saved or nearby waypoints. You will see a lot of information about the airport. If you scroll down, you will see the runway frequencies.

---

About the frequency, I think that perhaps the LIRF frequency for RW25 might have changed recently from 110.70 to 110.15 and this is why you see 110.70 in the local map while AirTrack says 110.15. So it is probably only for that runway and that airport and a difference in the databases.

The 110.15 is indeed the right current frequency, but I just saw 110.70 on an old chart from 2003.

I've also checked on the local map and:

On X-Plane 9: 110.70
On X-Plane 10: 110.15

So it appears that the X-Plane 9 still has the old frequency while 10 has the new frequency. Since the info in AirTrack is from the latest data, it uses the new one.

So that is why ...

Happy landings and a happy new year to you too and everyone!

Posted on December 31, 2011 18:53 by Tito

Thank you so much...now i've discovered the scroll function...but could be interesting edit the file in XP so that the freqs should be the same...but it's a very problem...now i can use the ILS too....it was so simply....for the next time...i'll read the manual but it's not so simple for me to translate....many thanks again...

Tito

Posted on December 31, 2011 19:06 by skyfox

If you want it is possible and you can update X-Plane 9 to the latest data too, and then the frequencies will be the same.

You get it from:

http://data.x-plane.com/get_data.html

And then you need to replace some files in your local hard disk.

Enjoy the flights :)

Posted on January 3, 2012 07:09 by Tito

Hi Joao,
i sent to you a mail with the screenshots attached so you can see what happens...even after the update the airac of XP.
Hope the screenshots are helpful...

Tito

Posted on January 3, 2012 13:35 by skyfox

Hi Tito,

Many Thanks! It was very helpful.

As mentioned by email, you seem to have hit a bug which happens in certain ILS / runways. Thanks to you this bug has now been corrected, and this will be reflected in the next AirTrack update.

joao

Posted on January 3, 2012 22:03 by Tito

Thank you for the answer Joao...in the meanwhile i'll continue to explore this MAGIC program!!!!

Tito

Posted on January 8, 2012 19:01 by Tito

Hi Joao,
maybe another problem but this time with LIRA RWY 15.
I've sent you two screenshots. Hope are helpful.

Tito

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